Curse

Thanato · Jul 04, 2005, 05:31 PM // 17:31

whilst reading in various threads, the use of a ranger/mesmer as an energy denial build was mentioned (echo -> debilitating shot -> spam debilitating shot) and i had a thought:

if you're using echo to copy debilitating shot, why not use arcane echo to copy echo, which will copy debilitating shot again?

basically it would be:
Arcane Echo -> Echo -> Debil -> Echo -> Debil -> spam Debil (and yes the combo is a bit long winded)

i gave it a try, and i can get 3 debil. shots; as to how effective this would be, i dont really know (havent tried it in pvp yet). maybe it'll be useful, or perhaps its just overkill on my account

also, this can be used on other skills as well (can you say 3 throw dirts? lol)

i'd like a lil feedback please

arnansnow · Jul 04, 2005, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Unfortunatly as a ranger you can only fire a maximum of three, before you run out of mana (not counting echo, and arcane echo). It would be faster than just two.

Thanato · Jul 04, 2005, 05:37 PM // 17:37

you mustnt forget that with expertise, the costs drops down, for debil. shot anywho

with 14 Expertise, that 10 energy debilitating shot drops down to 4 energy

arnansnow · Jul 04, 2005, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Forgot that, so it probably is better.

Thanato · Jul 04, 2005, 05:40 PM // 17:40

it might be slightly better, but i think the set up time and its long winded nature kind of kill its possibilities

Epinephrine · Jul 04, 2005, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnansnow

Unfortunatly as a ranger you can only fire a maximum of three, before you run out of mana (not counting echo, and arcane echo). It would be faster than just two.

If we are talking about what is possible, you can get another one on your skillbar too, with cooperation - Arcane Mimicry an ally's Echo to add another round to it.

arnansnow · Jul 04, 2005, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

If we are talking about what is possible, you can get another one on your skillbar too, with cooperation - Arcane Mimicry an ally's Echo to add another round to it.

And if you also have arcane theivery you can steal another one from an enemy. for a total of 5

Epinephrine · Jul 04, 2005, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnansnow

And if you also have arcane theivery you can steal another one from an enemy. for a total of 5

Well, I guess it's possible,but since it grabs a random spell and your enemy may not have it it is a bit far fetched. You can arrange to have a second debilitating shot ranger on your team to get the 4 debilitating shots each, but the Thievery relies on the opponent having the skill and you happening to get it.

Thanato · Jul 04, 2005, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

If we are talking about what is possible, you can get another one on your skillbar too, with cooperation - Arcane Mimicry an ally's Echo to add another round to it.

and now it begins to get complicated.

in theory, you could:
mimic an ally's echo -> Arcane echo -> Echo -> *insert skill here* -> Echo -> *insert skill here* -> Echo -> *insert skill here*

providing you have enough energy of course. if arcane thivery is used. you pretty much remove half of an opponents skills on his bar O.o

EDIT
this would be more suited to a mesmer since a ranger's energy pool isnt that great, although if you forgo the bow and use a staff, then it might be plausible

arnansnow · Jul 04, 2005, 05:49 PM // 17:49

And if the enemy is an echoing debil shot ranger in PvP, you have 2 chances for more debil shot or echo. And if he has arcan echo or mimicry as well, you have more chances.

stumpy · Jul 04, 2005, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Actually I have run this combo many times and I find it pretty much a waste (time vs. bow speed) ... Yes you can have the 3 arrows in your inventory but after 2 shots with my half moon its already 4 seconds ... thats just one second off of my debilitating recharge ... in a time efficiency manner I would rather have that slot free for another skill.

Thanato · Jul 04, 2005, 05:54 PM // 17:54

looking at the costs of this "combo"

Arcane Echo - 15 energy - 2s cast
Echo - 5 energy - 1s cast
Arcane Mimicry - 15 energy - 2s cast
Arcane Thievry - 10 energy - 1s cast

I think this might only be plausible if one was an E/Me since its energy costs just seem to keep rising lol

Epinephrine · Jul 04, 2005, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by stumpy

Actually I have run this combo many times and I find it pretty much a waste (time vs. bow speed) ... Yes you can have the 3 arrows in your inventory but after 2 shots with my half moon its already 4 seconds ... thats just one second off of my debilitating recharge ... in a time efficiency manner I would rather have that slot free for another skill.

Well, never said it was worth doing

Thanato · Jul 04, 2005, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by stumpy

Actually I have run this combo many times and I find it pretty much a waste (time vs. bow speed) ... Yes you can have the 3 arrows in your inventory but after 2 shots with my half moon its already 4 seconds ... thats just one second off of my debilitating recharge ... in a time efficiency manner I would rather have that slot free for another skill.

well have you tried using tiger's fury while spamming those 3 debil shots? should cut down your RoF to 1.3~ seconds instead of 2 seconds

Neo-LD · Jul 04, 2005, 06:19 PM // 18:19

debil on its own allows you to fire it once every 3 shots, for most bows. debil + echo allows you to fire it twice as often, meaning 2 out of every 3 shots. Using this combo it is theoretically possible to fire it EVERY shot, which is a good thing, but one I challenge how practical it is.

Firing nothing but debil shots makes you a one trick pony, you are of almost no other use to your team. 4 mana cost every shot will quickly run you dry. You could say, "well i could just not fire a debil shot every once in a while" but 2 out of your 3 debil skills are on 20 second timers! Recasting those is no fun.

What I would recommend instead is to use serpents quickness, which makes your debil shots cooldown in 4 seconds, meaning that it has the same effect of allowing you to fire a debil shot every shot if you want. The difference is that it aslo helps your other skills (faster recharge distracting shot, etc), it costs 2 mana as opposed to 10, and does not have to be recast every 20 seconds.

Thanato · Jul 04, 2005, 07:02 PM // 19:02

well you must remember that "arcane echo -> echo -> skill" can be used for any skill whatsoever.

let me try this skill build example:

Arcane Echo
Echo {E}
Throw dirt
Hunter's shot
Debilitating shot
Res Sig
Troll Unguent
Whirling Defense

if all the casters are down, you dont really need to spam debil. on warriors, you can easily switch to spamming hunter's shot. with hunter's shot quick recycle time, you wouldnt even need to use arcane echo.

also, if you plan on being more supportive, you could copy throw dirt and blind the warriors/rangers that are being a nuisance (they wouldnt have to be all grouped together, one could simplely echo-> throw dirt, and throw dirt on a different target afterwards)

this combo is really just speculation, as to its usefulness...well....you might be better off with just echo~

Rajamic · Jul 04, 2005, 10:49 PM // 22:49

Arcane Echo's mana cost is a huge drain for doing this. And remember this setup will only last for 20 seconds, then copies revert and have to recharge (30 seconds for the echoes, and 60 for Mimicry).

Nash · Jul 04, 2005, 11:13 PM // 23:13

You could use Serpent's Quickness.

Echo, with a Short Bow no IAS you can fire off 6 Debilitating Shots over the Echo duration. That's 3 more than normal. (However, with Tiger's Fury up you can fire off 7, compared to 5 normally.)

Serpent's Quickness at a decent level of Wilderness gives you about 25 seconds. During that time you can fire off 5 Debilitating Shots.

Echo has a downtime of 30, Serpent's Quickness about 5 seconds.

Echo gives you 6 Debilitating over 20 seconds and then 4 during downtime 30 seconds.
SQ gives you 5 Debilitating over 25 seconds and 1 during downtime 5 seconds.

That's 10/50 vs. 6/30. Guess what?
(10/10)/(50/10) = 1/5.
(6/6)/(30/6) = 1/5.

Neo-LD · Jul 05, 2005, 03:14 AM // 03:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nash

You could use Serpent's Quickness.

Echo, with a Short Bow no IAS you can fire off 6 Debilitating Shots over the Echo duration. That's 3 more than normal. (However, with Tiger's Fury up you can fire off 7, compared to 5 normally.)

Serpent's Quickness at a decent level of Wilderness gives you about 25 seconds. During that time you can fire off 5 Debilitating Shots.

Echo has a downtime of 30, Serpent's Quickness about 5 seconds.

Echo gives you 6 Debilitating over 20 seconds and then 4 during downtime 30 seconds.
SQ gives you 5 Debilitating over 25 seconds and 1 during downtime 5 seconds.

That's 10/50 vs. 6/30. Guess what?
(10/10)/(50/10) = 1/5.
(6/6)/(30/6) = 1/5.

Very good point. I cant help thinking, though, why no use them both? Using Nash's math, thats 5 debils over 25 secs (via SQ), *2 (since echo gives you another debil shot to fire) makes 10 debils over 25 seconds. Then you get 1 during the downtime when neither echo or serpents is active, then 1 debil per 5 secs (5/25 = 1/5) until echo is recharged, which only takes 14 seconds due to SQ. Then it starts all over again =).

Phades · Jul 05, 2005, 05:31 AM // 05:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Very good point. I cant help thinking, though, why no use them both? Using Nash's math, thats 5 debils over 25 secs (via SQ), *2 (since echo gives you another debil shot to fire) makes 10 debils over 25 seconds. Then you get 1 during the downtime when neither echo or serpents is active, then 1 debil per 5 secs (5/25 = 1/5) until echo is recharged, which only takes 14 seconds due to SQ. Then it starts all over again =).

Wouldnt you need some kind of attack speed stance to actually take advantage of that? If energy denail was the goal, then wouldnt it be used in conjunction with quickening zephyr for the skill recharge boost. Then tiger's fury for the attack speed boost and the mesmer side copying the debilitating shots. Could round it out with a preperation, res sig, and pin down or blind instead of a preperation. I dunno, there seems to be alot of possibilities for a ranger.

Probably would split the skill points too many ways with my suggestion though and need a staff for energy in the initial setup.